Suicide

[Slawen +]

Recently, "Discovery" chanel shows the movie about The Termopilas, Leonidas and Xerx as very personal story.
I was taken a back by that's shalow aproach.
For example, author insists that strength of Spartan's discipline was in homosexual bounds between the Lacedemonian wariors.
Similarly, the "Alexander" movie wriglle the same thesis.

What's your opinion about that?

[Kakashi]

Being from Greece myself I must say that in our ancient times homosexuality existed and was not considered abnormal. In fact, it was quite common. I don't know whether Alexander the Great himself was homosexual or whether Leonidas and his 300 Spartans were or whatever...
I just know that the ancient greek people felt good about their sexuality, no matter what it was.
That's my input on the matter.

[http://neerajsingh.bizhat]

Readers who are new and don't know about the context being discussed here. Here is some interesting reading material for them.

Let me introduce a Hero called King Leonidas and his 300 Spartans here. I have read a bit of history about them and they were true brave soldiers who sacrificed their life for their motherland.

Legendary in the annals of history are the Spartan Warriors of Ancient Greece. Fearless defenders of liberty, they followed a strict military way of life. In 400 B.C. three hundred Spartans under King Leonidas stood alone at the end against the enormous Persian army under the tyrannical King Xerxes who was sweeping southward into Greece. The 300 Spartans fought to the death against these impossible odds in the narrow mountain pass at Thermopylae (Gates of Fire). The Persians took shocking casualities . Their narrow lines of wicker shields and short javelins were no match for the highly disciplined Spartan lines with their large bronze shields and long spears who slaughtered the Sea of Persians wave after wave.

It was only after a betrayal of a secret path and the 700 Greek allies were ordered home to warn Greece that the 300 Spartans were finally overcome. ALthough the Spartans contributed little to the artistic and intellectual development of Greece, ironically, without them Democracy and Freedom would have been wiped out in their infancy.



I have seen the movie called The 300 Spartans that is based on The Battle of Thermopylae.

The Battle of Thermopylae took place during the Greece-Persia war in roughly the 5th century BC. Some 30 city-states of central and southern Greece met in Corinth to devise a common defense (others, including the oracle at Delphi, sided with the Persians). They agreed on a combined army and navy under Spartan command, with the Athenian leader Themistokles providing the strategy. The Spartan king Leonidas led the army to the pass at Thermopylae, near present-day Lamia, the main passage from northern into central Greece..........................................
.......................The Greeks were actually heartened by the example of Leonidas and the 300 Spartans plus allies who fought at Thermopylae. The battle served as an example to officers and soldiers alike of what courage and self-sacrifice could achieve. It is still remembered today as such an example.


The Battle of Thermopylae
[Herodotus, The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, tr. vol. 4 (New York: D. Appleman and Company, 1885), bk. 7]

Thus nobly did the whole body of Lacedaemonians and Thespians behave; but nevertheless one man is said to have distinguished himself above all the rest, to wit, Dieneces the Spartan. A speech which he made before the Greeks engaged the Medes, remains on record. One of the Trachinians told him, "Such was the number of the barbarians, that when they shot forth their arrows the sun would be darkened by their multitude." Dieneces, not at all frightened at these words, but making light of the Median numbers, answered, "Our Trachinian friend brings us excellent tidings. If the Medes darken the sun, we shall have our fight in the shade." Other sayings too of a like nature are reported to have been left on record by this same person.

I am a bit confused that - should this kind of act be considered as procreative suicide or a great sacrifice of their life for their motherland. Or both are one and the same.

Courtesy:
1) http://www.howarddavidjohnson.com/spartans.htm
2) http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Herother.html
3) http://www.geocities.com/the_temple_...0spartans.html
4) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055719/

[Kakashi]

Neeraj/ Ebisu- san , I am surprised that you know so much about ancient Greek history. Indeed, their battle was brave and if it wasn't for Efialtis ( translated as Nightmare) who betrayed them, they might as well have won.
I believe that this course of action is not a suicide anymore, but a self-sacrifice. In that case, the act is not only not condemned but praised.

[http://neerajsingh.bizhat]

I do agree with you Kakashi-san. This is an act of self-sacrifice for one's motherland and it sets an example for others to follow. I believe once we have some target in our life, we can achieve anything and fight against any adversary circumstances.

Let us be brave. Let us have a reason to be or to achieve something in life. Let us NEVER act like a coward by comitting suicide.

[http://neerajsingh.bizhat]

the life saver

With depression and suicides among students on the rise, life skill education is the need of the hour.

By Urmi Gagrhyry

THE STORY of an MBA student killing his lady love shocked India. Both the victim and the accused were under huge pressure. Stress, coping mechanisms, depression are terminologies that are getting more and more attention.What can be done to ensure our students' mental wellbeing?

Well, experts say, much can be done to combat stress, starting with lessons on life skill education (LSE) in our colleges / universities.

Life skills defined in a general way would mean the ability to build sound relationships with self, others and environment. It is also the ability to act responsibly and survive under a variety of conditions. It includes factors such as communications skills, emotion management, creative thinking, self awareness empathy, decision making.

We tend to be performance oriented. Few colleges in India give weightage to extra-curricular activities during admissions.A Head Counsellor, Praveen Shaiek, says, "Development can be grouped into three categories. First, is academic development then career and then life skill development. These are interwoven.Academic development alone is not enough.Life skill education has to move on in parallel with regular academics".

Keeping this in view, shouldn't life skills be an integral part of Indian education system? Manju Nechani, Principal KC College says, "LSE is very important. We have forgotten all about life skills as a result of which we see more and more students unable to cope. Not only should we research on IQ and EQ but also, efforts must be oriented towards enhancing SQ (spiritual quotient)".

Many edutainment companies have felt the need of training students on soft skills and are therefore rendering services to various schools and colleges across the country. Syed Sultan Ahmed, managing director of one such organisation says, "Planting a sapling and providing it with water alone is not enough. It also needs sunlight and good soil. Similarly, success does not predominantly depend upon study skills alone. It also is based on our life skill curriculum." Syed further added that it is very critical to expose parents and teachers to life skill education also.Mintoo Sinha,Principal, Bombay Teachers Training College, is of the opinion that such training should have follow-up session because life skills cannot be learnt by attending a few days workshops but is an ongoing process.

Why don't schools and colleges give LSE the status that it deserves? Manju Nechani opines that it is only a matter of time...The effects of life skill education is not immediate and cannot be quantitatively measured. Results can be seen only over a period of time, which is why it tends to take a back seat in this era of instant result seekers."

According to Praveen Shaiek, "Introducing professional workshops need outsourcing, which makes the matter expensive.

LSE awareness is fast growing. Snehal Sonsale, mother of two teenage children when asked whether a new programme would be welcome by our overburdened students, said, "Let us not underestimate our kids. Today's kids are ambitious and are ready to learn more and more."

However, Jeanine Chatterjee, student of Navy Children School, pretty much summed up students thoughts on LSE. She said, "We are fine with new programmes...but we want it to be done through fun and games.We don't want big home assignments from our LSE instructors!"
(The author is a practicing school psychologist )

Source: Times Of India Newspaper, Bangalore - India Edition
Date: Jan 23, 2006
Link : http://epaperdaily.timesofindia.com

[Slawen +]

This is an act of self-sacrifice for one's motherland and it sets an example for others to follow.

I can not agree with that.
Sacrifising for their own motherland/fatherland (depends of cultural aproach) wasn't objective Spartans try to achive.
No. They fought not for the others but for themself, for the glory, for the place in the sky just beside the ancestry. And they do that in Spartanian way, which alluded no retreat. Simply as that.
They were aware stalemate position of their own. Xerx, the Persian King, sent them a message to surrender: "I don't want your lives, I just want your weapon."
Leonidas responded: "Come and get it."

[http://neerajsingh.bizhat]

:? I believe Dr. Kevorkian is onto something. I think he’s great. Because suicide is our way of saying to God, "You can’t fire me. I quit." (Bill Maher) :?

Dear Slawen.

You are free to have your own beliefs. I can't argue over that. It seems you are in the grip of prejudice. I would ask you to go and refer the history and clear your concepts. I fear someday you would come and say that soldiers who die fighting for their country are comiting suicide :idea:

[Slawen +]

:
Dear Slawen.

You are free to have your own beliefs. I can't argue over that. It seems you are in the grip of prejudice. I would ask you to go and refer the history and clear your concepts. I fear someday you would come and say that soldiers who die fighting for their country are comiting suicide :idea:

Oh, no, it isn't a matter of history, not in essantial meaning. This is a question of influence of mythic to forming the cultural foundation of collective awarenes.

I'm Serb.
Almost every Europian nation, so the Serbs, have their own version of Thermopilas.
Our is Kosovo.
In the year 1389, Serbs fough against the Turk's invasion. Kosovo, the genuine Serb's land, was ordered for battlefield. But, unlike Spartans, Serbs haven't even try to circumvent hundred time numbered Turks. There wasn't any ilusion in Serbs victory. Serbs knew they all will be killed and their efforts are purposeless. And things went that way.
However, five centuries after battle which bring slavery to Serbs, the myth of Kosovo was living in the Serb nation and helped Serbs to rise against Turks.
That was the power of victory Serbs obtain despite Turks military success.
Do you think they haven't knew story about Spartans and Thermopilas?

[http://neerajsingh.bizhat]

Oh, no, it isn't a matter of history, not in essantial meaning. This is a question of influence of mythic to forming the cultural foundation of collective awarenes.

I'm Serb. Almost every Europian nation, so the Serbs, have their own version of Thermopilas. Our is Kosovo.

In the year 1389, Serbs fough against the Turk's invasion. Kosovo, the genuine Serb's land, was ordered for battlefield. But, unlike Spartans, Serbs haven't even try to circumvent hundred time numbered Turks. There wasn't any ilusion in Serbs victory. Serbs knew they all will be killed and their efforts are purposeless. And things went that way.
However, five centuries after battle which bring slavery to Serbs, the myth of Kosovo was living in the Serb nation and helped Serbs to rise against Turks. That was the power of victory Serbs obtain despite Turks military success. Do you think they haven't knew story about Spartans and Thermopilas?

Dear Slawen,

If given a chance, I would prefer to go with this "Kosovo version". This article gives us some information about the famous battle of Kosovo in 1389 under the title KOSOVO AND METOHIA IN THE SERBIAN HISTORY.

Here is some relevant excerpts from the above article.

As known from history, the advance of the Turks towards Europe was a rather slow process. Prince Lazar Hrebeljanovic and Serbian nobility in the famous battle of Kosovo in 1389 did everything humanly possible to stop the Turkish invasion toward south eastern Europe. It was not only a clash of two armies led by their rulers Serbian prince Lazar and Turkish sultan Murat (who both perished in the battle of Kosovo), but also a clash of two civilizations, one Christian and European and other Islamic and Asiatic. Read More.....

Source: Slavenko TERZIC, Ph.D.
Historical institute of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts


Friend Slawen, I can see that they didn't simply give up. They fought like any other true warrior and in the end Prince sacrificed his life for his country. Anyway, we are free to chose our own version of history and there is no one there to stop us. I would rather prefer to be positive and fight and lay down our life for the betterment of my country over giving up in the beginning itself.

I am from India and we can count so many instances where we fought and just fought for our freedom without giving it a second thought. On many occasions, you would be calling it a suicide but IT WAS NOT. We call it self sacrifice for something good. Let me give you three exapmles from Indian history to bring home my point of view.

Mahatma Gandhi - Father of the nation who gave us (India) freedom from the British rule. Even mighty British couldn't imagine that one single person can do any harm to them and that also when Mahatma teaches non-violence. You would be surprised to know that he won freedom for us without a single bullet.

By means of nonviolent civil disobedience, Gandhi helped bring about India's independence from British rule, inspiring other colonial peoples to work for their own independence and ultimately dismantling the British Empire. Gandhi's principle of satyagraha (from Sanskrit; satya for truth and agraha for endeavour), often translated as "way of truth" or "pursuit of truth", has inspired other freedom activists such as Martin Luther King, Jr., the Dalai Lama, Lech Wałęsa, Stephen Biko, Aung San Suu Kyi, and Nelson Mandela. However, not all these leaders kept to Gandhi's strict principle of nonviolence and nonresistance. Read More...


Maha Rana Pratap - a great warrior - He died fighting for his nation, for his people, and most importantly for his honor. In 1576, the famous battle of Haldighati was fought with 20,000 Rajputs against a Mughal army of 80,000 men commanded by Raja Man Singh. The battle was fierce though indecisive, to the Mughal army's astonishment. Read More.....


1971 India-Pakistan War: Battle of Longewal - The Battle of Longewal, fought in the deserts of the Indian state of Rajasthan, merits inclusion in any account of the 1971 India-Pakistan war because of the sheer audacity of the Pakistani generals who had planned it. Had it succeeded, India would have lost thousands of kilometres of a vast expanse of desert. But there is a fine line between the daring and the foolhardy. Did Pakistani generals cross that dividing line?

The Pakistani plan was no less ambitious and a surprise attack was launched along the Gabbar-Longewal axis. The main axis lay to the north, connecting the Indian town of Jaisalmir with the Pakistani town of Islamgarh and Rahimiyar Khan beyond it. The intruding Pakistani armoured column and accompanying towed artillery was spotted by an Indian patrol on 4th December after it had come 16 km into Indian territory. The first reports were dismissed, until the enemy took up position just 300 metres away from the isolated Indian Army company located at Longewal. The unit had no anti-tank weapons or mines. The Pakistanis could have overrun the post within hours. But the Indian company commander, Major Kuldip Singh Chandpuri, showed presence of mind by bringing in the company's recoilless guns and heavy machine guns and directing concentrated and sustained fire at the enemy positions. The Pakistanis were taken aback by the extent of the fire and felt that the Indians must have a much larger force at Longewal than reported by their Intelligence. Instead of storming the post and carrying on to Jaisalmir as was the plan, the Pakistanis encircled the post and decided to set up their artillery to soften it up before attacking. Read More....

Similarly, not only I anyone can quote so many instances from their history, culture, religion that would support one point of view wherein we can distinguish between a suicide and self-sacrifice for some good reasons and NOT for personal gains.